like that in the future, neil? neil: do you get a sense, and this is how it goes a minute thirty into this, both introduced, and there will be more pressure on getting their points clear and short and simple, that both have been faulted for sometimes veering off of that. >> absolutely. when you look at the libya response from governor romney, other responses by president obama, they need short, concise, be powerful. this is, in fact, the last venue to do something like this just two weeks before the election. neil: finally, the pressure, i think, disproportionally on the president because it's his strength. if there's a rubber mat, he's the guy with the advantage because he's dominating these headlines and events, or did i jump the gun a little bit? >> well, when you look add what happened at the first debate,

voters realized he was not the mitt romney the democrats were portraying creating this sense or movement or the swing in the polls that although president obama had a much better debate in the second debate than the first one, that didn't move polls back. there's a sense of romney momentum, and that's something the president has to stop, especially in the last couple weeks. neil: we'll watch closely. after all the handlers are there, sometimes getting there 15-20 # minutes before the debate is done. this is it, final exchange of the candidates of 2012. wrapping up then three presidential debates, the vice presidential debate, and at times they are very consequential, moving the needle, both try to do so tonight. here's bob shieffer. >> moderator: this is the fourth and last debate of the 2012 campaign brought to you by

the commission of presidential don'ts. this is on foreign policy. i'm bob schieffer. the questions are mine, and i have not shared them with the candidates or their aids. the audience took a vow of silence, no applause or action of any kind other than right now when we welcome president barack obama and governor mitt romney. [cheers and applause] [applause] >> moderator: gentlemen, your campaigns agreed to certain rules, and they are simple asking me to divide the evening

into segments. i'll pose a question at the beginning of each segment. you have two minutes to respond, and then we will have a general discussion until we move to the next segment. tonight's debate, as both of you know, comes on the 50th anniversary of the night that president kennedy told the world that the soviet union installed nuclear missiles in cuba, perhaps the closest we've ever come to nuclear war, and it is a sobering reminder that every president faces at some point an up expected threat to our national security from abroad. let's begin. the first segment is the challenge of a changing middle east and the new face of terrorism. i'm going to put this into two segments so there's two topic questions within the one segment on the subject. the first question, and it concerns libya, the controversy over what happened there

continues, four americans dead, including an american ambassador. questions remain -- what happened?@ what caused it? was it spontaneous? was it an intelligence failure? was it a policy failure? was there an attempt to mislead people about what happened. governor romney, you said it was an example of an american policy in the middle east that is unraveling before our very eyes. i'd like to hear each of you give your thoughts on that. governor romney, you won the toss, you go first. romney: thank you, bob, thank you for moderating tonight. thank you to lynn university for having us here. mr. president, great to be with you here again. we were at a a humorous event before, and it would be nice to be funny here tonight, but we'll see what happens. we'll see a complete change in

the structure and the environment of the middle east. with the arab spring, came a great deal of hope there would be a change towards more moderation, an opportunity for greater participation on the part of women and public life, and in the economic life in the middle east, but instead we've seen in nation after nation, a number of disturbing events. in syria, 0,000 civilians killed by the military there. we see in libya, an attack, apparently by, i think, we know now by terrorists of some kind against our people there, four people dead. our hearts and mind go to them. the northern part of mali taken over. we have an egypt, a muslim brotherhood president, and so what we are seeing is a dramatic reversal for hopes we had in the region, and the greatest threat of all is iron, four years --

iran, four years closer to a nuclear weapon. i congratulate the president on taking out bin laden and going off the leadership in al-qaeda. we can't kill our way out of the mess. we have to put in place a robust strategy to help the world of islam and other parts of the world reject the violence extremism which is not on the run. it's certainly not hiding. this is a group that is now involved in ten or 12 countries presenting an enormous threat to our friends, to the world, to america long term, and we must have a comprehensive strategy to help reject this extremism. >> moderator: mr. president? obama: my first job of commander-in-chief, bob, is to keep the american people safe. we've done that over four years. we ended the war in iraq, refocused intention on those who actually killed us on 9/11, and as a consequence, al chi --

al-qaeda's core leadership is decimated. we are now able to transition out of afghanistan in a responsible way ensuring afghans take responsibility for their own security, and that allows us also to rebuild alliances and make friends around the world to combat future threats. now, with respect to libya, as i indicated in the last debate, when we received that phone call, i immediately made sure that, number one, ww did everything we could to secure those americans who were still in harm's way. number two, that we would investigate what happened, and number three, most importantly, that we would go after those who killed americans, and we would bring them to justice, and that's exactly what we're going to do. it's important to step back and think about what happened in libya. keep in mind that i and americans took leadership in organizing an international coalition that made sure that we

were able to -- without putting troops on the ground at the cost of less of what we spent in two weeks in iraq, liberate a country under the yolk of dictatorship for 40 years, got rid of a december pit who killed americans, and as a consequence, december -- despite the tragedy, you had tens of thousands of those marching in libya saying america's our friend. we stand with them. that represents the opportunity we have to take advantage of. governor romney, i'm glad you agreed we're successful in going after al-qaeda, but i have to tell you that, you know, your strategy, previously, has been one that's all over the map, and it's not designed to keep americans safe or to build on the opportunities that exist in the middle east. romney: it's straightforward which is to go after the bad guys, do our best to interrupt them, to kill them, to take them

out of the picture, but my strategy is broader than that. that's important, of course, but the key that we're going to have to pursue is a pathway to get the muslim world to be able to reject extremism on its own. we don't want another iraq. we don't want another afghanistan. that's not thh right course for us, but to make sure we go after the people who are leaders of the various anti-american groups and these jihadists, but also help the muslim world. how do we do that? a group of arab scholars came together, organized by the u.n., to look at how we can help the world reject terrorists, and the answer they came up with was this. keep foreign aid, direct investment, and that of our friends, coordinate to push back and give them economic development. number two, better education. number three, gender equality. number four, the rule of law. we have to help nations create civil societies, but what's happening over the last couple

of years is as we've watched this tumult in the middle east, a rising tide of chaos occur, you see al-qaeda rushing in, other jihadist groups rushing in, and there throughout many nations in the middle east. it's wonderful libya is making some progress, despite the terrible tragedy, but next door, of course, there's egypt, libya's 6 million population, egypt's 80 million population. we want to see progress throughout the middle east with north mali taken over now by al-qaeda, and syria having assad continuing to murder his own people. this is a region in tumult and iran on the path of nuclear weapons. >> moderator: let's give president obama a chance. obama: i'm glad you said that because you said the biggest threat was russia.

they are asking for the foreign policy back because the cold war's been over for 20 years, but, governor, when it comes to the foreign policy, you seem to want to import the foreign policies of the 198 # 0s just like the social policies of 1950s, and the economic policies of the 1920s. you say that you're not interested in duplicating what happened in iraq, but a few weeks ago, you said we think we should have more troops in iraq right now, and that the challenge we have -- i know you have not been in a position to actually execute foreign policy, but every time you offer an opinion, you've been wrong saying we should have gone into iraq, despite the fact there's no weapons of mass destruction. you said that we should still have troops in iraq to this day. you indicated that we shouldn't be passing nuclear treaties with russia despite the fact that 71

senators, democrats and republicans, voted for it. you said that first we should not have a time line in afghanistan, then you said we should, then maybe, then depends. o not only were you wrong, but confusing sending mixed messages to the troops and our allies. what we have to do with respect to the middle east is strong steady leadership, not wrong and wreckless leadership all over the map. unfortunately, that's the opinions you've offered throughout the campaign, and it is not a recipe for more american strength. >> moderator: i'll give you a chance to respond. romney: i don't concur what the president said about my record and what i said. they don't happen to be accurate, but i can say this. we are talking about the middle east and how to help the middle east reject the kind of terrorism we're seeing and the rising tide of tumult and

confusing. attacking me is not agenda or talking about how to deal with the challenges that happen in the middle east and take advantage of the opportunity there and stem the tide of the violence. i'll respond to a couple things you mentioned. first of all, russia indicated is a geopolitical foe, not a geopolitical foe, and iran is the greatest national security threat we face. russia does continue to battle us in the u.n. time and time again. i have clear eyes on this. i don't have rose colored glasses with russia or mr. putin and say to him i'll give you more flexibility after the election and more backbone. number two, with regards to iraq, we agreed there should have been a status of forces agreement. obama: that's not true. what i would not have done is left 10,000 troops in iraq to tie us down. that would not help us in the middle east. romney: i'm sorry. there was an effort on the part

of the president to have a status of forces agreement, and i concurred in that said we should have a number of troops that stayed on. that was something i concurred with. that was your posture and mine as well. you thought it should have been 5,000 troops, and i thought it should have been more. obama: this was a few weeks ago you indicated we should have troops in iraq. romney: i indicated that you failed to put in place a status of forces agreement at the end of the conflict that existed. obama: here's one thing i'd learned as commander in chief. you got to be clear, boacht to our allies and our enemies about where you stand and what you mean. you just gave a speech a few weeks ago in which you said we should have troops in iraq. that is not a recipe for making sure that we are taking advantage of the opportunities and meeting the challenge of the middle east. now, it is absolutely true that we cannot just meet the challenges militarily, and so

what i've done throughout my presidency and will continue to do is, number one, make sure these countries are supporting our counterterrorism efforts. number two, make sure that they are standing by our interests in israel's security because it is a true friend, and our greatest ally in the region. number three, we do have to make sure we're protecting religious minorities and women because these countries can't develop unless all the population, not just half of it, is developing. four, we have to develop their economic -- their economic capabilities, but number five, the other thing we have to do is recognize that we can't continue to do nation building in these regions. part of american leadership is making sure we do in addition building here at home. that will help us maintain the kind of american leadership we need. >> moderator: let me interject the second topic question in this segment about the middle east and so on, and that is you both mentioned -- eluded to

this, and that is syria. a war in syria spilled over to lebanon, more than a hundred people killed there in a bomb, demonstrations there, eight people dead. mr. president, it's been more than a year since you told assad he had to go. since then, 30,000 people in syria have died, 3,000 refugees, war goes on, he's still there. should we reassess our policy and see if we can find a better way to influence events there, or is it even possible. you go first, sir. obama: what we've done is organize the international community saying assad has to go. we've mobilized sanctions against that government. we have made sure that they are isolated. we have provided humanitarian assistance, and we are helping the opposition organize, and we're particularly interested in ensuring we are mobilizing the moderate forces inside of syria, but ultimately, syria has to

determine their own future. everything we're doing, we're doing in consultation with the partners in the region like israel which has a huge interest in seeing what what happens in a coordinating with turkey and others in the region with a great interest in this. now, what we see taking place in syria is heart breaking which is why we'll do everything we can to make sure we help the opposition, but we also have to recognize that, you know, for us to get more entangled militarily in syria is a serious step, and we have to do so making absolutely certain we know who we are helping, that we're not putting arms in the hands of folks who eventually could turn them against us our allies in the region, and i am confident that assad's days are numbered, but what we can't do is to simply suggest as governor romney at times suggested, that giving heavy weapons, for

example, to the syria opposition is a simple proposition that leads us to be safer over the long term. >> moderator: governor? romney: let's step back and talk about what's happening in syria and how important it is. first of all, 30,000 people killed by their government is a humanitarian disaster. syria's an opportunity for us because syria plays an important role in the middle east, particularly now. syria is iran's only ally in the world, it's their route to the sea, the route to arm hezbollah in lebanon that threatens, of course, our ally israel. seeing syria remove assad is a very high priority for us. seeing a replacement government being responsible people is critical for us, and, finally, we don't want military involvement there. we don't want to be drawn into a military conflict. the right course is working through our partners, own resources to identify responsible parties within syria, organize them, bring them together in a form of, if not

government, a form of council that can take the lead in syria, and then make sure they have the arms necessary it -- necessary to defend themselves. we need to make sure they don't get arms in the wrong hands to harm us down the road. we have to coordinate this with our allies, particularly israel. but the saudis and turks and qataris are concerned about this. we need effective leadership effort in syria ensuring the insurgents there are armed, and those who are armed are people who will be the responsible parties. recognize i believe that assad must go, he will go, but i believe we want to make sure we have the relationships of friendship with the people that take his place such that in the years to come, we see syria as a friend and syria as a responsible party in the middle east. this is a critical opportunity for america, and what i'm afraid

of is we watched over the past year or so, first, the president saying, well, let the u.n. deal with it, and anon said we'll try for a cease fire. that didn't work. looked to the russians, see if you can do something. we have to play the leadership role there, not on the ground with military. by the leadership role. >> moderator: all right. obama: we organized the friends of sere yew. we are -- syria. we are mobilizing syria support and support for the opposition making sure those we help are those who will be friends of ours in the long term and friends of our allies in the region over the long term, but, you know, going back to lib ya, because it's an -- libya because it's an example of how we make choices. you know, when we went into libya, and we were able to immediately stop the massacre there because of the unique circumstances and the coalition that he -- we helped to organize, we had to insure gadhafi didn't stay there.

to the governor's credit, you supported going into libya and the coalition we organized, but when it came time to making sure that gadhafi did not stay in power, that he was captured, governor, your suggestion was that this was mission creed and muddle. imagine if we pulled out at that point. now, gadhafi had more american blood on his hands than any other individual other than bin laden. we were making sure we would finish the job. that's why the libyans stand with us. we did so in a careful, thoughtful way making certain that we knew who we were dealing with, that those forces of moderation on the ground were ones that we could work with, and we have to take the same kind of steady, thoughtful leadership when it comes to syria. that's what we are doing. >> moderator: governor, would you go beyond what the administration would do, like, for example, would you put in no-fly zones over syria?

romney: i don't want to have our military involved in syria. there's not a necessity to put our military in syria at this stage, and i don't anticipate that in the future. as i indicated, our objectives are to replace assad, put in a new government friendly to us, and make sure they have the arms necessary to defend themselves, but also to remove assad, but i do not want to see a military involvement on the part of our troops, and this isn't going to be necessary. we have -- with our partners in the region, we have sufficient resources to support those groups, but, look, this has been going on for a year. this should have been a time for american leadership. we should have taken a leading role, not militarily, but a leading role, organizationally, fundamentally, find responsible parties. as you hear from intelligence sources today, the insurgents are highly disparate, have not

come together, have not formed a unity group or council of some kind. that needs to happen. america can make that happen. we have to make sure they have the arms they need to carry out the very important role of getting rid of asad. on the phone: -- >> moderator: a quick response. obama: i'll be quick. he doesn't have different ideas because we are doing exactly what we should be doing to try to promote a moderate, syria leadership, and an effective transition so we get assad out. that's the leadership we've shown and will continue to show. >> moderator: may i ask you, you know, during the egyptian turmoil, there came a point when you said it was time for president mubarak to go. some in the administration thought perhaps we should have waited awhile on that. do you have any regrets about that? obama: no, i don't. america has to stand with democracy. the notion that we would have

tanks run over young people in tahir square, that's not what john f. kennedy talked about 50 years ago. what i also said is that now that you have a democratically elected government in egypt, they have to make sure they take responsibility for protecting religious minorities, and we have put significant pressure on them to make sure they are doing that, to recognize the rights of women, which is critical throughout the region. these countries can't develop if young women are not given the kind of education that they need. they have to abide by their treaty with israel. that is a red line for us because not only is israel's security at stake, but ours if that unvalves. they have to cooperate with us on counterterrorism, and we will help them with respect to developing their own economy because ultimately what's going to make the egyptian revolution

successful for the people of egypt and for the world is that if those young people who gathered there see opportunities, their aspirations are similar to young people's here. they want jobs. they want to be able to make sure their kids go to a young school. they want to make sure they have a roof over their heads, and they have the prospects of a better life in the future, and so one of the things we've been doing is, for example, organizing entrepreneurship conferences with these egyptians to give them a sense of how they can start rebuilding their economy that's noncorrupt, transparent, and what's important for us to understand is that for america to be successful in the region, there's some things we're going to have to do here at home as well. you know, one of the challenges over the last decade, as we've done experiments in nation building in places like iraq and afghanistan, and we've neglected, for exampll, developing our own economy, our own energy sectors, our own

education system, and it's very hard for us to project leadership around the world when we are not doing what we need to do. >> moderator: governor romney, i want your response to that, but i ask you would you have stuck with mubarak? romney: no, i believe as the president indicated and said at the time i supported his action there. i felt we had a better vision of the future. i wish looking back at the president's term and further back than that, we'd recognized there was a growing energy and passion for freedom in that part of the world, and we would have worked more aggressively with our friends and others in the region to make the transition towards a more representative form of government so it did not explode in the way it did. once it exploded, i felt the same the president did, which are freedom voices in the streets of egypt, the people who were speaking of our principles and the president mubarak had done things that were unimaginable, and the idea of him crushing his people was not something we could possibly

support. let me step back and talk about what i think our mission has to be in the middle east and more broadly because our purpose is to make sure the world is peaceful. we want a peaceful planet. we want people to enjoy their lives and have a bright and prosperous future and not be at war. that's our goal. the principles of peace fell to america. we didn't ask for it, but it's an honor to have it. to promote requirements of peace, that begins at home. that requires a strong economy. unfortunately, the economy is not strong. when the president of iraq, ahmadinejad, says our debt is bad for the country, that's not a good thing. admiral mullen said our debt is the biggest national security threat we face. we have weakened our economy. we need a strong economy. we need, as well, a strong military. our military is second to none

in the world, blessedded with terrific soldiers and extraordinary technology and intelligence, but the idea of trillion dollars in cuts to the military would change that. we need strong allies. our association and connection with our allies is social to america's strength. we're the great nation that has allies, 42 allies and friends around the world, and finally, we have to stand by our principles, and if we're strong in those thing, american influence grows, but unfortunately, nowhere in the world is america's greater today than it was four years ago because we're weaker in the four dimensions. >> moderator: all right. that's a perfect segue into the next segment which is what is america's role in the world, and that is the question. what do each of you see as our role in the world, and i believe governor romney, it's your turn to go first. romney: well, i absolutely believe america has a

responsibility and the privilege of helping defend freedom and promote the principles that make the world more peaceful, and those principles include human rights, human dignity,,free enterprise, freedom of expossession, -- freedom of expression, elections, because when there are elections, people vote for peace, not war. we want to promote those principles around the world. there's places of conflict in the world. we want to end conflicts to the extent humanly possible, but in order to be able to fulfill our role in the world, america must be strong. america must lead. for that to happen, we have to strengthen our economy here at home. you can't have 23 million people struggling to get a job. you can't have an economy that over the last three years keeps slowing down the growth rate. you can't have kids coming out of college, half of whom can't find a job today or a job that's with their college degree. we have to get the economy

going, and our military, we got to strength p the military long term. we don't know what the world throws at us down the road. we make decisions today in the military that will confront challenges we can't imagine. in the 2000 debates, there was no mention of terrorism, for instance issue and a year later, 9/11 happened. we have to make decisions based upon uncertainty, and that means a strong military. i will not cut the military budget. we have to stand by our allies. i think the tension that existed between israel and the united states was very unfortunate. i think, also, that pulling our missile defense program out of poland in the way we did was also unfortunate in terms of, if you will, disrupting the relationship in some ways that existed between us, and then, of course, with regards to standing for our principles. when the students took to the streets in tehran, and the students protested, and for the president to be silent was a mistake. we have to stand for our

principles, stand for the allies, a strong military, and a stronger economy. >> moderator: mr. president. obama: america is the one indispensable nation, and the world needs a strong america, and it is stronger now than when i came into office. because we ended the war in iraq, we refocused attention on not only the terrorist through the, but also beginning a transition process in afghanistan. it also allowed us to refocus on alliances and relationships neglected for a decade, and governor romney, our alliances have never been stronger. in asia, in europe, in africa, with israel where we have unprecedented military and intelligence cooperation including dealing with the iranian threat, but what we also have been able to do is position ourselves so we can start rebuilding america, and that's what my plan does, making sure we're bringing manufacturing

back to our shores to create jobs here as we've done with the companies shipping jobs over seas. making sure we have the best education system in the world including retraining workers for the jobs of tomorrow. doing everything we can to control our own energy. we've cut our oil imports to the lowest level in two decades because we've developed oil and natural gas, but we have to develop clean energy technologies that allow us to cut exports in half by 20 # -- 2020. that's the kind of leadership we have to show and reduce our deficit. unfortunately, governor romney's plan does not do it. we have to do it in a responsible way, cutting spending we do not need and also ask the wealthiest to pay more to invest in research and technology that kept us at the cutting edge, now, governor romney has taken a different approach throughout this campaign. you know, both at home and abroad, he's proposed wrong and

wreckless policies. he's praised george bush as a good economic steward, and dick which cheney with great judgment. going back to those policies is not a way to maintain leadership in the 21st century. >> moderator: governor romney, wrong and wreckless policies? romney: i have an economy for the future, and i know what it takes to create 12 million new jobs and rising take home pay. what we saw over the last four years is what i don't want to say over the next four years. the president said by now we would be at 5.4% unemployment. we're 9 million jobs short of that. i'll get america working again with five steps. number one, we are going to have north american energy independence taking full advantage of oil, coal, gas, nuclear, and our renewables. number two, we're going to increase our trade. trade grows at 12% a year,

doubles about every five or so years. we can do better than that, particularly in latin america. the opportunities for us in latin america have not been taken advantage of fully. latten america's economy is almost as big as the economy of china. we're focused on china. latin america's a huge opportunity for us, time zone, language opportunities. number three, we're going to have to have training programs that work for the workers, and schools that finally put the parents and the teachessers and kids first and teachers unions have to go behind. we have to get to a balance the budget. we can't expect businesses, large and small, take life savings and company's money, to invest in america if we head to greece, and that's where we are going unless we get off the spending and borrowing binge. timely, number five, we have to champion small business, small businesses where jobs come from.

two-thirds of the jobs come from small businesses. new business formation is down to the lowest level in 30 years under this administration. i want to bring it back and get back good jobs and rising take home pay. obama: talk about what we need to compete. governor romney talks about small businesses, but, governor, when you were in massachusetts, small businesses development ranked 48th out of 50 states in massachusetts because the policies you promote don't help small businesses, and the way you define "small businesses" include folks at the very top like you and me. that's not the small business promotion we need. take an example we know makes a different in the 21st century, and that's our education policy. we didn't talk about this in the last debate. under my leadership, we reformed education, working with governors in 46 states. we've seen progress and gains in schools that were having a terrible time, and they are

starting to finally make progress. i want to hire more teachers, especially in math and science because we know we've fallen behind when it comes to math and science, and those teachers can make a difference. now, governor romney, when you were asked by teachers whether or not this helps the economy grow, you said it's not going to help the economy grow. when you asked about reduced class sizes, you said it didn't make a difference. i tell you, if you talk to teachers, they steel -- tell you it does make a difference, and if we got math teachers able to provide the kind of support they need for our kids, that's what's going to determine whether or not the new businesses are created here, companies locate here depending on whether we've got the most highly skilled work force, and the kinds of budget proposals you put forward, when we don't ask either you or me to pay a dime more in terms of reducing the deficit, but, instead, slash support for education, that's

underminding our long term competitiveness. that's not good, and the world notices. >> moderator: getting back to foreign policy. romney: bob, about education, i'm proud of the state i had the chance of being governor of. 4th graders are tested in math. while governor, they came out number one of all 50 states in english and math as well as our 8th graders in english and math. first time one state was number one in all four measures. how did we do that? republicans and democrats came together on a bipartisan basis to put in place education principles focusing on having great teachers in the classroom. that allowed us to become the number one state in the nation. obama: that was ten years before you took off and you cut it when you came into office. romney: kept the schools number

one in the nation, still number one today, and we gave kids a graduation exam to determine whether they were up to the skills needed to be able to compete, but also if they graduated in the top quarter of their class, they got a four year tuition free ride at any massachusetts public institution of higher learning. obama: that was before you came into office. romney: that was mine, mr. president. >> moderator: i want to shift it because we heard this in the other debates. governor, you want a bigger military, a bigger navy. you don't want to cut defense spending. what i want to ask you, talking about financial problems in the country. where are you going to get the money? romney: come back and talk about the military, but all the way through, first of all, i'm going through from the beginning, cutting 5% of the discretionary budget excluding military. that's number one. >> moderator: but can you do this without driving us deeper into debt? romney: on the website, you see

how we get to a balanced budget in 8-10 years by reducing spending in a series of programs -- by the way, i get rid of obamacare. there's a number of things that sound good, but, frankly, we can't afford them. that doesn't sound good, and it's not affordable. i get rid of that from day one to the extent humanly possible, get it out, taking program after program that we don't absolutely have to have, and we get rid of them. number two, take some programs that we are going to keep like medicaid, a program for the poor. we'll take that health care program for the poor, and we give that to the states to run because states run these programs more efficiently. as a governor, i thought, please, give me this program. >> moderator: can he do that -- romney: states, by the way, prove it. states like arizona, rhode island have taken these medicaid dollars, shown they can run the programs more cost effectively. obama: bob -- romney: i want to do that to get us to a balanced budget within eight to ten years.

back to the military, though -- >> moderator: that's what i'm trying to -- obama: you should have answered the first question. look, governor romney's called for $5 trillion of tax cuts he says he's going to pay for by closing deductions. now, the math doesn't work, but he continues to claim that he's going to do it. he thenments to spend another $2 trillion on military spending that our military's not asking for. now, keep in mind that our military spending has gone up every single year that i've been in office. we spend more on the military than the next ten countries combined: china, russia, france, united kingdom, you name it. next ten. what i did was work with our joint chiefs of staff to think about what are we going to need in the future to make sure we are safe? that's the budget we put forward, but what you can't do

is spend $2 trillion in additional military spending that the military's not asking for, $5 trillion on tax cuts. you say you're going to pay for it by closing loopholes and deductions without naming what the loopholes and deductions are, and then somehow, you're going to deal with the deficit we already got. the math simply doesn't work. what it comes to the military, what we have to think about is not, you know, just budgets, but we have to think about capabilities, cyber security, space. that's what the budget does, but driven by strategy. it's not driven by politics. it's not driven by members of congress and what they want to see. it's driven by what are we going to need to keep the american people safe. that's what the budget does, and that allows us to reduce the deficit which is a significant national security concern because we got to make sure that

our economy is strong at home so that we can project military power overseas. >> moderator: bob, i'm pleased that on balanced budgets, in the world of business for 25 years. if you didn't balance the budget, you were out of business. we went to the olympics, made it a success there. was a governor of a state, four years in a row, democrats and republicans came together to balance the budget, cut taxes 19 times, balanced the budge. the president has not balanced a budget yet. i expect to have the opportunity to do that myself. talk about military spending, and that's this -- >> moderator: 30 seconds. romney: navy is smaller no u than any other time since 1917. we are down to 285 ships headed down to the low 2 # # -- 200s if we go through sequestering. that's unacceptable. we need the shipped required by the navy. our air force smaller than 1947.

we changed for the first time since fdr. since fdr, we always had the strategy the same to fight in two conflicts at once. now it's one conflict. look, this, in my view, is the highest responsibility of the president of the united states, to maintain the safety of the american people, and i will not cut the military budget by a trillion dollars which is the combination of the budget cuts that the president has as well as the sequestering cuts. that, in my view, makes our future less secure. obama: bob, i have to comment this. sequestering is not what i proposed, but the congress. it will not happen. the budget we talked about is not reducing our military spending, but maintaining. i don't think they looked at how the military works. looked at the navy, fewer ships than in 1916. there's fewer horses and

bayonettes because the nature of the military changes. we had aircraft carriers where planes land on them, submarines, and so the question is not a game of battleship where we count ships, but what are the capabilities? when i sit down with the secretary of the navy and the joint chiefs of staff, we determine how are we best able to meet all of our defense needs in a way that also keeps faith with the troops, that also makes sure our veterans have the kind of support they need when they come home, and that is not reflected in the budget you put forward because it just doesn't work. we visited the website quite a bit, and it does not work. >> moderator: a lot to cover. i want to move to the next segment. red lines, israel, and iran. would either of you, allowed two minutes, and, president obama, you have the first go at this

one, would either of you be willing to declare the attack on israel is an an tack on the united states with the same promise we give to the same allies like japan, and if you made a declaration, would not that detour iran? it's certainly detoured the soviet union for a long, long time when we made that promise to our allies. mr. president? obama: first of all, israel is a true friend. it is our greatest ally in the region, and if israel's attack, america stands with israel. i made that clear throughout my presidency. >> moderator: you're saying we already made that declaration? obama: i stand with israel if attacked. working with israel, we created the strongest military and intelligence cooperation between our two countries in history. in fact, this week, we'll be carrying out the largest military exercise with israel in

history, this very week, but to the issue of iran, as long as i'm president of the united states, iran will not get a nuclear weapon. i've made that clear when i came into office. we then organized the strongest coalition and the strongest sanctions against iran in history, and it is crippling their economy. their currency's dropped 80%. their oil production plunged to the lowest level since fighting a war with iraq 20 years ago. their economy is in the shambles, and the reason we did this because a nuclear iran is a threat to our national security as well as israel's national security. we can't afford to have a nuclear arms race in the most volatile region of the world. iran's a state sponsor of terrorism, and for them to provide nuclear technology to nonstate actors, that's unacceptable, and they said they want to see israel wiped off the

map so the work we've done with respect to sanctions offers iran a choice. take the diplomatic route, end the nuclear program, or face a united world and a united states president, me, who said we're not going to take any options off the table. the disagreement with governor romney is that in the course of the campaign, he talked as if we should take premature military action. i think that would be a mistake because when i sent men and women in harm's way, i understand that that is the last resort, not the first resort. >> moderator: two minutes. romney: first of all, i underscore the point the president made. if i'm president of the united states, when i'm president of the united states, we will stand with i israel, and if israel is attacked, we have their back, not just dipmatically or

culturally, but militarily. that's number one. number two with regards to the threat of iran, theee's no question about the nuclear iran, a nuclear capable iran is unacceptable to america. it presents a threat not only to the friends, but ultimately a threat to us to have iran have nuclear weapons to be used against us or to be threatening to us. it's essential to understand our mission in iran, dissuade iran to have nuclear weapons through peaceful and diplomatic means and crippling sanctions i called for five years ago in israel speaking at the conference. i laid out seven steps. crippling sanctions were number one, and they work. you're seeing it now in the economy. it's absolutely the right thing to do to have crippling sanctions. i would have put them in place earlier, but it's good we have them. number two, i'd ttghten sanctions. i'd say that ships that carry iranian oil can't come into our ports. companies moving oil can't --

people trading oil can't. tighten sanctions further. secondly, i would take on diplomatic isolation efforts and ensure ahmadinejad is understood genocide. his words amount to genocide in criation. i indict hii for it. treat them like the pryer they are like the partide diplomats of south africa. increase pressure on iran time and time again because anything other than a solution to this which stops this nuclear folly of theirs is unacceptable to america. of course, military action is the last resort. it is something one would only, only consider if all of the other avenues had been tried to the full extent. >> moderator: let me ask both of you, as you know, there's reports that iran and the united states is part of an international group agreed in principle to talks about iran's

nuclear program. what is the deal if there are talks, what is the deal you accept, mr. president? obama: those are reports in the newspaper. they are not true, but our goal is to get iran to recognize it needs to give up its nuclear program and abide by the u.n. resolutions that have been in place because they have the opportunity to reenter the community of nations, and we welcome that. there are people in iran with the same aspirations as people all around the world for a better life, and we hope their leadership takes the right decision, but the deal we'll accept is to end their nuclear program. it's straightforward, and, you know, i'm glad that governor romney agrees with the steps that we're taking. you know, there have been time, governor, frankly, in the course of the campaign where it sounded like you thought that you do the

same things we did, but say them louder, and that somehow makes a difference. the work involved in setting up critical sanctions is pain staking and me -- meticulous. we started the day we got in office. the reason it's so important, and this is a testament to how we improved american strength around the world is make sure all countries participated even russia and china because if it's just us imposing sanctions, we had sanctions in place for a long time. it's because we got everybody to agree that iran is seeing so much pressure. we have to maintain the pressure. there is a deal to be had, and that's they abide by the rules already established. they convince the interthacial community. they are not -- international community. they are not pursuing a nuclear program. there are inspections that are

intrusive, but over time, they can regain credibility, but in the meantime, we don't let up pressure until we have clear evidence that takes place. one last thing to make this point. the clock is ticking. we're not going to allow iraa to perpetchewable engage in negotiations that lead to nowhere. i've been clear to them. because of the negotiation intelligence we do with a range of countries like israel, we have a sense of when they get breakout capacity meaning we can't intervene in time to stop the nuclear program, and that clock is ticking. we'll make sure if they do not meet the demands of the international community, then we are going to take all options necessary to ensure they don't have a nuclear weapon. >> moderator: governor? romney: one of the challenges with iran is they lookedded at this as mrgs and felt the administration was not as strong as it needed to be, and i think they saw weakness where they

expected to find american strength. i say that because from the beginning the president of the campaign four years ago said he would meet with the world's worst actors in the first year like il, castro, and with president ahmadinejad of iran, and i think they looked and thought r, well, that's an unusual honor to receive from the president of the united states, and the president began what i call an "apology tour" going to various nations in the middle east and criticizing america. i think they looked at that and saw weakness. when there were disdense in the streets of tehran, holding signs saying "is america with us?" the president was silent. they noticed that. when the president said he was going to create daylight between ourselves and israel, they noticed that as well. all of these thinns suggested, i think, that, hey, you know, we can keep on pushing along here. we can keep talks going on, but we're going to keep on spinning

centerfuges. they are preparing to create a nuclear threat to the united states into the world. that's unacceptable for us, and it's essential for a president to show strength from the very beginning to make it very clear what is acceptable and not acceptable, and ironnian -- iranian nuclear program is not acceptable to us. they must not develop nuclear capability, and to understand that, we have to have from the beginning the tightest sanctions possible. they need to be tightened. our diplomatic isolation needs to be tougher. we have to indict candidates bin gat -- ahmadinejad, and put the pressure on as tight as we can. if we do that, we don't have to take military action. obama: nothing mitt romney said is true starting with me apologizing. that's the biggest whopper in

the campaign. fact checkers have said this is not true. when it comes to tightening sanctions, look, as i said before, we put in thee toughest, most crippling sanctions ever, and the fact is while we were coordinating the coalition to ensure sanctions were effective, you were still invested in a chinese state oil company that was doing business with the irani oil sector. i'll let the american people judge who will be more effective and credible when it comes to imposing crippling sanctions, and with respect to our attitude with the iranian revolution, i was clear about the murderous activity that had taken place, and that was contrary to international law and everything that civilized people stand for, and so the strength that we have shown in iran is shown by the fact that we've been able to mobilize the world. when i came into office, the

world was divided. iran was resurgent. iran, at its weakest point, economically, strategically, and militarily than in many years. we'll keep pressure on to ensure they don't get a nuclear weapon. that's in america's national interest, and that's the case as long as i'm president. >> moderator: four years closer to a nuclear iran. we're four years closer to a nuclear iran. we -- romney: we are four years closer to a nuclear iran. number two, the reason i called it an apology tour is because you went to the middle east, flew to egypt, saudi arabia, turkey, and iraq, and, by the way, you skipped israel, the closest friend in the region, but you went to the other nations. by the way, they noticed you skipped israel. in the nations, and on arabic tv, you said america was

dismissive and had dictated to other nations. mr. president, america has not dictated to other nations. we have freed other nations from dictators. obama: bob, let me respond. you know, if we talk about trips we've taken, when i was a candidate for office, first trip i took was to visit the troops, and when i went to israel as a candidate, i didn't take donors. i didn't attempt fundraisers. i went to the h hal cost muslim world seem there and why our bond is unbreak l. i went to the border towns that experienced missiles raining down from hamas, and i saw families there who showed me where missiles had come down near their children's bedrooms,

and i was reminded what that means if those were my kids which is why as president we funded an iron dome program to stop those missiles so that's how i have usedded my travels when i traveled to israel and the region, and the central question at this point is who is going to be credible to all parties involved, and they can look at my track record whether it's iran's sanctions, dealing with county -- counterterrorism, supporting democracy, supporting women's rights, supporting religious minorities, and they can say that the president of the united states and the united states of america have stood on the right side of the history, and that credibility is why we show leadership on a wide range of issues the world is facing right now. >> moderator: what if -- what if the prime minister of israel called you on the phone and

said, "our bombers are on the way, we're going to bomb iran." what do you say? romney: bob, let's not go into hypotheticals of that nature. our relationship with israel, my relationship with the prime minister of israel is such we would not get a call from them saying our bombers or fighters are on the way. this is the thing that would have been discussed and thoroughly evaluated before that. >> moderator: let's see -- romney: come back to what the president was speaking about which is what's happening in the world, and the president's statement that things are going so well. look, i look at what's happening around the world, and iran is four years closer to a bomb, the middle east with a rising tide of violence, chaos, tumult, and i see jihadists continuing to spread -- whether rising or the same level -- hard to precisely measure, but it's clear they are there, they are strong. i see syria with 30,000

civilians dead, assad still in power, our trade deficit with china larger -- growing larger every year as a matter of fact. i don't feel north korea continues to export nuclear technology, and russia said they are not following it anymore, and back away from a nuclear proliferation treaty we had with them. i look around the world, i don't see influence growing around the world, but receding in part because of the failure of the president to deal with our economic challenges at home and in part because of withdrawal of our commitment to the military in how it should be, and in part because of the turmoil with israel. the president received a letter from 38 democratic senators saying tensions with israel are a problem. they asked him to please repair the tensions. democratic senators, please repair the damage in his own party.

obama: governor, the problem is is that on a whole range of issues, whether it's the middle east, whether it's afghanistan, whether it's iraq, whether it's now iran, you've been all over the map. i mean, i'm pleased that you now are endorsing our policy, applying diplomatic pressure, and potentially having bilateral discussions with the iranians to end their nuclear program, but a few years ago, that's something you said you'd never do in the same way you initially opposed a timetable in afghanistan. now you're for it? although, it depends. in the same way you said you would have ended the war in iraq, but recently gave a speech saying we should have 20,000 more folks in there, the same way that you said that it was mission creep to go after gadhafi. when it comes to going after bin

laden, you said, well, any president makes that call, but when you were a candidate in 2008 when i was, and i said if i got bin laden in the sights, i would take that shot. you said, we shouldn't move help and earth to get one man, but to ask pakistan for permission. if we did, we would not have gotten him. it was worth moving heaven and earth to get him. after we killed bin laden, i was at ground zero for a memorial and talked to a young woman who was four years old when 9/11 happened, and with the last conversation she had with her father was him calling from the twin towers saying, peeton, i love you, and i'll always watch over you, and for the next decade, she was haunted by a conversationings and she said to me, you know, by finally getting bin laden, that brought closure to me, and when we do things

like that, when we bring those who harmed us to justice, that sends a message to the world and it tells peyton that we did not forget her father, and i make that point because that's the kind of clarity of leadership and those decisions are not always popular. those decisions are not poll tested, and some in my party, including my current vice president, had the same critique as you did, but what the american people understand is that i look at what we need to get done to keep the american people safe and to move our interests forward, and i make those decisions. >> moderator: all right. let's go, and that takes us right to the next segment, governor, america's longest war, afghanistan and pakistan. romney: you can't have the president lay out a series of items without giving me a chance -- >> moderator: with respect, sir, you laid out a program there. romney: that's true.

obama: we'll agree on that. >> moderator: we'll catch up. united states agreed to turn over responsibility for security to afghanistan to the afghan government in 2014. at that point, we'll withdrawal our combat troops, leave a smaller force of americans, and if i understand the policy in afghanistan for training purposes. it seems to me the key question here is what do you do if the deadline arrives, and it is obvious the afghans are unable to handle their security? do we still leave, and i believe governor romney, you go first. romney: we'll be finished by 2014, and when i'm president, we'll bring the troops out by the end of 2014, the commanders and generals there on track to do so. we saw progress over the past several years, the surge successful, and the training program is proceeding pace. there's now a large number of

afghan security forces, 350,000 ready to provide security, and we'll make the transition by the end of 2014. the troops come home at that point. i can't tell you at the same time that we will make sure that -- we look at what's happening in pakistan and recognize what's happening in pakistan impacts the success in afghanistan, and i say that because i know a lot of people feel like we should brush hands, walk away, and i don't mean you, mr. president, but people in our nation feel that pakistan is being nice to us, and that we should walk away, but pakistan is important to the region, to the world, and to us because pakistan has 100 nuclear warheads, and they are rushing to build more, more than great britain in the relatively near future. they have the aqani network.

a pakistan as a failed state is a danger to afghanistan and to us and so we have to remain helpful in encouraging pakistan to move to a more stability government and rebuild the relationship with us, and that means that our aid that we provide to pakistan has to be conditioned upon certain benchmarks met. for me, it's a need to help move pakistan in the right direction and also to get afghanistan to be ready and they will be ready by the end of 2014. >> moderator: mr. president? obama: when i came into office, we were still bogged down in iraq, and afghanistan had been drifting for a decade. we ended the war in iraq, refocused attention on afghanistan, and we did deliver a surge of troops facilitated in part because we ended the war in iraq, and we are now in a position where we have met many of the objectives that got us there in the first place. part of what happened is we

forgot why we had gone. we went because there were people who were responsible for 3,000 american deaths. we decimated al-qaeda's core relationship between the areas of afghanistan and pakistan. we started to build up afghan forces, and we're now in a position to transition out. there's no reason why americans should die when afghans are capable of defending their own country, and that transition has to happen in a responsible fashion. we have been there for a long time. we have to ensure we, and our coalition partners, pull out responsibly and giving afghans a capability that they need, but what i think the american people recognize is that after a decade of war, it's time to do nation building here at home, and what we can do is free up resources to, for example, put americans back to work, especially our

veterans. rebuilding our roads, bridges, schools, making sure that our veterans get care needed when it comes to post-traumatic stress disorders and brain injuries and the certifications they need for good jobs of the future in place. i was having lunch with a veteran from minnesota who was a medic dealing with the most extreme circumstances. when he came home and wanted to be a nurse, he had to start from scratch. we said, let's change the the first lady does great work with joining forces putting our veterans back to work. veterans' unemployment is lower than the general population. it was higher when i came to office. those are the things we can now do because we make the transition in afghanistan. >> moderator: all right. let me go to governor romney because you talked about

pakistan and what needs to be done there, and then general allen, our commander in afghanistan, says americans continue to die at the hands of groups who are supported by pakistan. we know that pakistan has arrested the doctor who helped us catch obama's bin laden, provides safe hap for terrorists, but we continue to give pakistan billions of dollars. is it time for us to divorce pakistan? romney: no, it's not time to divorce a nation on earth that has 100 nuclear weapons on the way to double that at some point, a nation that has serious threats from terrorist groups from within its nation. as i indicated before, the haqqani network, a nation not like others or have a civilian leadership calling the shots there. you have the si --

isi, tte most powerful intelligence there, and this is a nation, that if it falls apart, becomes a failed state, there are nuclear weapons there, and you got terrorists there who could grab their hands under the nuclear weapons. this is an important part of the world for us. pakistan is technically an ally, and they are not acting very much like an ally now, but we have work to do. i don't blame the administration for the fact that the relationship with pakistan is strained. we had to go into pakistan. we had to go there to get bin laden. that was the right thing to do, and that upset there, but there was anger before that, but we're going to have to work with the people in pakistan to help them move to a more responsible course than the one they are on. it's important for them, the nuclear weapons, the success of afghanistan, because inside

pakistan, there's a large number of pashtuns that are there, and they rush back into afghanistan, and that's why the security forces have a lot of work to do to fight against that. we have to recognize we can't just walk away from pakistan, but as we send support for them that this is tied to them making progress on matters that would lead them to becoming a civil society. >> moderator: let me ask you, governor, because we know president obama's position on this. what is your position on the use of drones? romney: well, i believe that we should use any and all means necessary to take out people who pose a threat to us and our friends around the world, and it's widely reported that drones are used in drone strikes, and i support that entirely and feel the president was right to up the usage of that technology and believe that we should continue to use it, continue to go after the people who represent a threat to the in addition and to our friends.

let me also note, as i said earlier, we have to do more than just going after leaders and killing bad guys. as important as that is, we have to have a far more effective and comprehensive strategy to move the world away from terror and islamic extremism. we have not done that yet. we talk about these things, but you look at the record, you look at the record of the last four years and say is iran closer to a bomb? yes. is the middle east in tumult? yes. is al-qaeda on its heels? no. are israel and palestinians closer to a peace agreement? no. they have not had talks in two years. we have not seen the progress we need, and with a strong leadership and effort to build a strategy based upon helping these nations reject extremism, we can see the kind of peace and prosperity the world demands. obama: well, keep in mind, our strategy was not just going after bin laden, but we created

partnerships throughout the region to deal with extremism in somalia, yemen, in pakistan, and what we've also done is engage these governments in the kind of reforms that are actually going to make a difference in people's lives day-to-day, to ensure their governments are not corrupt, to make sure they are treating women with the kind of respect and dignity that every nation that succeeds has shown, and to make sure they got a free market system that works so across the board, we are engaging them in building capacity in these countries, and we have stood on the side of democracy. one thing i think americans should be proud of when tunisia began protesting, this nation, me, my administration, stood with them earlier than just about any other country. in egypt, we stood on the side of democracy. in libya, we stood on the side

of the people. as a consequence, there is no doubt that attitudes about americans have changed. there are always going to be elements in these countries that potentially threaten the united states, and we want to shrink those groups and those networks, and we can do that, but we're always also going to have to maintain vigilance with terrorist activities. the truth is that al-qaeda is much weaker than it was when i came into office, and they don't have the same capacities to attack the u.s. homeland and our allies as four years ago. >> moderator: let's go to the next segment because it's an important one. it is the rise of china, and futuue challenges of america. i want to begin this by asking both of you, and, mr. president, you go first this time. what do you believe is the greatest future threat to the national security of this

country? obama: well, i think it will continue to be terrorist networks. we have to remain vigilant as i just said, but with respect to china, china's an adversary, but also a potential partner in the international community if it's following the rules. my attitude coming into office was that we are going to insist that china plays by the same rules as everybody else, and i know americans had seen jobs being shipped overseas, businesses and workers not getting a level playing field when it came to trade, and that's the reason why i set up a trade task force to go after cheaters when it came to international trade. that's the reason why we have brought more cases against china for violating trade rules than the previous administration had done in two terms, and we won just about every case we filed,

that's been decided. in fact, just recently, steel workers in ohio and throughout the midwest, pennsylvania, are in a position now to sell steel to china now because we won that case. we had a tire case in which they were flooding us with cheap domestic -- or cheap chinese tires, and we put a stop to it, and as a consequence, saved jobs throughout america. i have to say that governor romney criticized me for being too tough in that tire case. said this would not be good for american workers and it would be protectionist, but the workers don't feel that way and feel they had an administration to take the issue seriously. over the long term, in order for us to compete with china, we've also got to make sure, though, we're taking care of business here at home. if we don't have the best education system in the world, if we don't continue to put money into research and technology that will allow us to create great businesses here in

the united states, that's how we lose the competition, and, unfortunately, governor romney's budget and his proposals would not allow us to make those investments. >> moderator: all right, governor? romney: it's not government that make businesses successful. it's not government investments that grow and hire people. the greatest national security threat is a nuclear iran. let's talk about china. china has an interest that's very much like ours in one respect, and that is they want a stable world. they don't want war. they don't want to see protectionism. they don't want to see the world break out into various forms of chaos because they have to manufacture goods and put people to work. they have about 20 million people coming out of the farms every year, coming into the cities, needing jobs so they want the economy to work, and the world to be free and open, and so we can be a partner with china. we don't have to be an adversary

in any way, shape, or form. we can work with them, collaborate with them if they are willing to be responsible. now, they look at us and say is it a good idea to be with america? how strong will we be? how strong is our economy? they look at the fact we owe them a trillion dollars, and $16 trillion total including them, and look at the decision to cut back the military capabilities, a trillion dollars. the secretary of the defense called the trillion cuts to the military devastating. that's not my term, but the president's own secretary of defense, called them devastating. look at america's commitments around the world, and they see what's happening, and they ask if america's strong, and the answer is yes if i'm president, the country will be very strong. we have to have trade relations with china that work for us. i watched year in and out as companies shut down and people have lost jobs because china has not played by the same rules in part holding down artificially

the value of their currency, holding down the prices of the goods meaning our goods are not competitive, and we lose jobs. that's not to -- that's got to end. they are making progress. on day one, i label them "a currency ma nip lappetter" -- manipulator," and they steal our designs, technology, hacking into our computers, counterfeiting our goods. they have to understand we want to trade with them, a world that's stable, we like free enterprise, but you have to play by the rules. >> moderator: governor, if you declare them a currency manipulator on day one, some say that starts a trade war with china on day one. isn't there a risk that could happen? romney: they sell us this much stuff a year, and we sell them this much a year. it's clear who doesn't want a trade war. there's one going on now, it's

silent, and they are winning. we have enormous trade imbalance with china, and it's were this year than last year, and last year than the year before. we have to understand we can't just surrender and lose jubes year -- jobs year in and year out. you play aggressively, we understand it, but it can't keep ongoing and holding down the value of the currency, stealing our intellectual property, counterfeiting our products, selling them around the world, even the united states. i was with a company that makes valves in processed industries, and they said, look, we had vol -- valves come in that were broken, repaired them under warranty. they had our serial number on them, but there was more than one with that number. counterfeit products made overseas with the same serial number of the u.s. company, same packages sold in our market and around the world like they were

made by the u.s. competitor. this can't go on. i want a great relationship with china. china can be our partner. that doesn't mean they can just roll all over us and steal our jobs on an unfair basis. obama: governor romney is right. you are familiar with shipping companies overseas because you had a company that shipped jobs overseas. you're right. that's how free market works. i made a different bet on american workers. you know, if we had taken the advice, governor romney, about the auto industry, we'd buy cars from china rather than selling cars to china. if we take advice with respect to change the tax codes so companies earning profits overseas don't pay u.s. taxes compared to companies here that are paying taxes, now, that's estimated to create 800,000 jobs, but they will not be here, but in places like china. if we don't invest in education

something that the private sector is doing at a sufficient pace right now, and has never done, we'll lose the lead in things like clean energy technology. now, with respect to what we've done with china already, u.s. exports have doubledsince i came into office to china, and currencies are at the most advantageous point for exporters since 1993. we have to make more progress. that's why we keep on pressing. when it comes to our military and chinese security, part of the reason that we were able to pivot to the asia-pacific region after ening the war in iraq and transitioning out of afghanistan is precisely because this is going to be a massive growth area in the future, and we believe china can be a partner, but we are also sending a clear signal that america is a pacific power, that we will have a

presence there, and we are working with countries that work with those that ships pass through, commerce continues, and we're organizing trade relations with countries other than china so china starts feeling more pressure about meeting basic international standards. that's the keep of leadership we've shown in the region. that's the leadership we'll continue to show. romney: i want to take one of the appointments, again, attacks me is not talking about an agenda for getting more trade and opening up more jobs in this country, but the president mentioned the auto industry and somehow i would be in favor of jobs being elseehere. nothing is further from the truth. i'm a son of detroit. i was born in detroit. my dad was head of a car company. i like american cars. i would do nothing to hurt the u.s. auto industry. my plaa to get the industry on its feet when it was in real trouble was not to start running checks. it was president bush that wrote

the first checks. i disagree with that. companies needed a managed bankruptcy, and in that process, they could get government help and guarantees, but go through bankruptcy to get rid of excess cost and debt burden built up. obama: governor romney, that's not what you said. romney: look at the op-eds. obama: you did not say you would provide government help. romney: provide garn -- guarantees to allow the companies to come out of bankruptcy. under no circumstances would i do to help the industry get on its feet, and the idea is suggested that i would liquidate the industry. of course not. that's the height of silliness. obama: governor, let's check the record. the people of detroit don't forget. romney: i have the kind of commitment to make sure our industries in this country can compete and be successful. we, in this country, can compete

successfully with anyone in the world, and we're going to. we're going to have to have a president, however, that doesn't think somehow the government investing in car companies like tesla making electric batteries. this is not research. this is the government investing in companies, solyndra. that's not research. i want to invest in research. research is great, providing funding to universities and think tanks, great, but in companies? absolutely not. that's the wrong way to go. i'm still speaking. i want to make sure we make america more competitive. obama: yeah. romney: do the things that make america the most attractive place in the world for entrepreneurs, innovators, bbsinesses to grow, but you're investing in companies that doesn't do that. in fact, it's less likely for them to come here because the private sector will not invest in a solar company if you're investing -- obama: can i have the floor for awhile?

look, i think that anybody else there can check the record. governor romney, you keep on trying to, you know, air brush history here. you were very clear that you would not provide government assistance to the u.s. auto companies even if they went through bankruptcy and they could get it in the private market place. that was not true. romney: you're wrong, mr. president. obama: i'm not wrong. romney: people can look it up, you're right. obama: balm -- people will look it up. for us to be competitive, we have to make smart choices now. cutting education budget is not a smart choice. that does not help us compete with china. cutting our investments in research and technology, that's not a smart choice. that will not help us compete with china. bringing down our deficit by adding $7 trillion of tax cuts and military spending that our military's not asking for before we even get to the debt that we

currently have, that's not going to make us more competitive. those are the kinds of choices that the american people face right now. having a tax code that rewards companies that are shipping jobs overseas instead of companies that are investing here in the united states. that will not make us more competitive. the one thing that i'm absolutely clear about is that after a decade in which we saw drift, jobs shipped overseas, nobody championing american workers and american businesses, we have now begun to make real progress. we can't go back to the same policies that got us into such difficulty in the first place. that's why we have to move forward and not go back. romney: i couldn't agree more about going forward, but i don't want to go back to the policies over the last four years. the policies of the last four years saw incomes in america decline every year for middle income families.

23 million americans still struggling to find a good job. when you came to office, 32 million on food stamps, today, 37 million on food stamps. $10 trillion in debt when you came to office, now 16 trillion. we're 9 million jobs short. i met the people. i met them in appleton, wisconsin. i met a young woman in philadelphia who's coming out of college, can't find work. ann was with someone the other day weeping about not being able to get work. it's just a tragedy in a nation so prosperous of ours that the last four years have been so hard. that's why it's critical that we make america, once again, the most attractive place in the world to start businesses, to build jobs, to grow the economy, and that's not going to happen by just hiring teachers. look, i love teachers and happy to have states and communities

that want to hire teachers, do that, and, by the way, i don't want to federal government pushing its way deeper into our schools. let the states and low cam -- localities do that. i love teachers, but i want the private sector growing, and i know how to do it. >> moderator: we all love teachers. [laughter] gentlemen, thank you so much for vigorous debate. we came to the end. it's time for closing statements. you are first, mr. president. obama: thank you very much, bob, mitt romney, and lynn university. you heard three debates, months of campaigning, and way too many tv commercials. you have a choice. over the last four years, we made real progress digging out of policies that gave us two prolonged wars, record deficits, and the worst economic crisis since the great depression. governor romney wants to take us back to the policies.

foreign policy that's wrong and wreckless, economic policies that won't create jobs, won't reduce deficit, but will make sure that folks at the very top don't have to play by the same rules that you do. i got a different vision for america. i want to build on our strengths. i put forward a plan to make sure that we bring manufacturing jobs back to our shores, by rewarding companies and small businesses that are investing here, not overseas. i want to make sure we got the best education system in the world, and we're retaining our workers for the jobs of tomorrow. i want to control our own energy by developing oil and natural gas and also the energy sources of the future. yes, i want to reduce our deficit by cutting spending that we don't need, but by asking the wealthy to do more so that we can invest in things like research, technology that are the key to a 2 # 1st -- 21st century economy. as commander in chief, i will maintain the strongest military

in the world, keep faith with our troops, and go after those who do us harm, but after a decade of war, i think we all recognize we got to do nation building here at home, rebuilding roads, bridges, and especially caring for our veterans who sacrificed so much for the freedom. you know, we've been through tough times, but we also bounce back because of our character because we pull together, and if i have the privilege of being your president for another four years, i promise you, i'll listen to your voices, fight for your families, and i'll work every single day to make sure america continues to be the greatest nation on earth. thank you. >> moderator: governor. romney: thank you, bob, mr. president, folks at lynn university, good to be with you. i'm optimistic about the future. i'm excited about the prospects as a nation. i want to see peace. i want to see growing peace in the country. it's our objective. we have an opportunity to have real leadership. america's going to have that leadership and continue to

promote principles of peace to make a world a safer place and make people of the country more confident that their future is secure. i also want to make sure we get this economy going, and there's two different paths the country can take. one is a path represented by the president which at the end of four years means we have $20 trillion in debt heading towards greece. i'll get us on track to a balanced budget. the president's path will mean continuing declining in take home pay. i want to make sure our take home pay starts to grow. the president's path means 20 million people out of work, struggling for a good job. i'll get people back to work with 12 million new jobs. i'll make sure people are off the food stamps, not by cutting the program, but getting them good jobs. america's going to come back, and for that to happen, we have to have a president who works across the aisle. i was in a state where my legislature was 87% democrat. i learned how to get along on

the other side of the aisle. we have to do that in washington. washington is broken. i know what it takes to get this country back, and we'll work with good democrats and good republicans to do that. this nation is the hope of the earth. we've been blessed by having a nation that's free and prosperous thanks tots contributions of the greatest generation. they held a torch for the world to see, a torch of freedom, hope, and opportunity. it's our turn to take the torch. i'm convinced we'll do it. we need strong leadership. i'd like to be that leader with your support. i'll work with you. i'll lead you in an open and honest way, and i ask for your vote. i'd like to be the next president of the united states to support and help this great nation, and to make sure that we, all together, maintain america as the hope of the earth. thank you so much. >> moderator: gentlemen, thank you both so much. that brings an end to this year's don't. i thank the students for being

with us, and i leave you with the words of my mom who said, "go vote, is makes you feel big and strong." good night. [applause] neil: all right. it is over. this very fiesy exchange at a table, no less, an event where mitt romney started out very slowly as he concentrated exclusively on foreign affairs, and as soon as he, the governor pivoted to domestic issues and how it is crippling the international standing, only then did the meter move for mitt romney. he was not comfortable in this environment, certainly not as much as the president, but his demeanor says anything, and about who needed to make up ground the most, it was the president who was the aggressor tonight, and clearly trying to come back gebs the opponent for a strange reason after the president's strong performance

last week was still lacking in the polls or at least maintaining leads in swing states, and narrowing gaps in others so it was the president on offense, and that provided often times, if you look at split screens, i notice things other people do not so i can be very, very wrong, but it was a very angry looking barack obama, and i would say just poker face, just that, a very stoic, but smiling ever so gently, mitt romney. that doesn't niecely mean anything. it is just a quick knee jerk response. that might have been the desired response, the anger of a part of a president who feels his record is maligned, and that this mitt romney fellow is not presenting an active portrayal of the u.s. standing under barack obama. there's a lot of different ways to read this lines of the night, expressions of the night. i think the president might have

had the edge there when mitt myth was braiding him for reducing the navy to the size it was back in world war i. the president reminded him, you know, we've come past horses and bayonettes and have resources to modern weaponry. that got a laugh in the crowd. he said when mitt romney talked about russia being our biggest enemy saying, governor, the 80s is calling and they want their foreign policy back. what the governor failed to clarify in that remark was that russia is the funding source behind iran, behind what's going on in syria. the big block, some of our overtures to try to get a settlement in the middle east, even dealing with libya. he might not be too far off the mark with that, but, again, it was an opportunity that was lost on him. i want to look what's going on in the spin room here.

never of the debates seen this year, have we seen so many surrogates from each side flood the room at the same time. the romney folks were the first out the gate. you see david axelrod, no doubt saying his guy did well tonight. some of the signs represent the names of administration surrogates who argue that they did well, but, again, it started the night with the romney folks first coming out, about two dozen of them, and then the obama folks coming out. i can see what looks like the top of john kerry's head, a man who is rumored to be a secretary of state in a second obama administration, should that come to pass, and hillary clinton steps down. by the way, he was one of those democratic senators who myth mitt was referring who who advised the administration to take a much more supportive and firm stance behind israel so they will each spin this.

it'll look like it's close to a draw to me. it's possible, but i don't know these things. if that is the case, and you're the president, and you're looking at gaining traction for this debate, i'm not sure tonight did it for you. sarah palin, former vice presidential candidate, form governor of alaska, what do you think? >> i think president obama showedded his desperation tonight, not just with the mannerisms, all the interruptions, and seemingly angered responses, but false charges trying to make up were lost grown, of course, because the president's lies catch up with him. neil, it's unfortunate governor romney didn't have time to answer all the false charges. i made a couple pages, a list of the false charges, and i'm sure that you, in the world of the media, will be discussing those the next couple of days, but first and foremost, looking forward to this debate because, to mee-- well, i'll dismiss the

notion that foreign policy/national security debate is less important than an economic policy debate, and i guess it's the mama grizzly in me that comes out when i think about my son, overseas, in a war zone, and i think how offensive it is our own president would claim to be using our military troops to fight and die unquote, his behalf, unquote, and throws them under the bus by holing the paycheck that he has a problem with the military troops voting conveniently in a war zone, that he would claim that sequestering was not his fault. he said he signed it into law, and that it's not going to happen. neil: we're hearing governor, from mitch mcconnell's office, you know, hold on, sparky, paraphrasing here and trivializing it, you just can't

dismiss it. it's a co-creature. that has them saying, what did he say again? now it's going to lead to a separate debate as to whether the president with a swift of the hand can remove what i call the backup backbone in washington to force cuts if congress and the president can't agree to them. to divorce himself from that struck me as odd. >> well, absolutely. for him to point the finger saying it's congress' fault and it's not going to happen. he signed it into law. neil: right, right. >> somehow, he's going to not allow this to happen? now, this is going to equate to a trillion dollar cut in our national defense, in our military budget, and now he says that his plan doesn't include cuts to military funning. the media has to call him out on the blatant lies, again, i have a list of them, but i don't like

it -- neil: you raised a couple examples. >> just to say they are untrue. neil: you raised examples, but where is mitt romney to respond on that? benghazi, what did you know, mr. president, when did you know it? another night for that to slip by or the president didn't force it. on the drone question, you'd think the governor would bring up the fact, yes, i believe in drone technology. it was the drone in benghazi when the crowds were developing, and you ignored that warping, mr. president. again, it could be the nerves of the night. you've been through it. you know this process better than i do, governor, but it seemed like governor romney let big opportunities, almost like big old foreign policy softballs go over the plate, and he didn't hit them. >> that is why it is important for the common sense constitutionalists who do care

about our foreign policy, national security, to start answering the false charges because romney didn't have time. obama is the master at spewing untruth upon untruth in the charges knowing that he keeps throwing things at the refrigerator and something sticks. romney did not have time to answer all the charges. it's important for constitutional conservatives to make up for that lack of aggressive answer back from romney, and that in the next 16 days, we start answering the false charges for one, the charge that romney or that obama made, that our alliances, our relationships with those across the globe are better today than ever. since when? including israel he had the nerve to claim. since when? surrogates have to do the job. neil: well, i didn't hear that either. i was surprise at that, but maybe in the end, you know, many people say that it gave the impression of mitt romney trying to nnt risk anything in the lead

that he has, say what you will of last week's debate, and i think we were chatting at the time about how, you know, you could cut that one both ways, but maybe the president had the better part that night, but you would see it in the polls. we have not seen it in the polls. if anything, mitt myth has widen the lead. it presented a conundrum for the president tonight, over the top aggressive, and i think that might come back to bite him. if you argue he wop the debate on points or one-liners, and i'm wrong on this, so i have no idea how it will be graded, but i think he -- he risked a lot with his demeanor, the anger, the constant interruptions, the joe biden type of ways he went about this that might have been his trying to reclaim the offensive, but i kept trying to think, you

know, you are the president. didn't seem presidential. your thoughts? >> no, i think romney came across much more presidential. he's not self-centered when it comes to talking about his record and when it comes to gives credit where credit is due whereas obviously, obama is a very self-centered politician who wants to blame everybody but himself when something goes wrong. you saw that tonight. no, romney, i think came across as taking the high road. my nature would be, you know, come back swinging on some of those points and interrupt obama to make a point because romney or obama has that as a practice to interrupt, and, you know, the moderator allowed him to keep interrupting, but, no, i think romney came across as much more presidential. neil: interesting. the interruption thing, cuts both ways, but i kept saying, both candidates, there was a chance to do that more. obviously, the president took advantage of it aggressively. quickly, governor, before i let

you go, the economy didn't come up until a half hour into this. that's when, obviously, governor romney started weaving that into the whole idea of national security, our security's compromised with $60 trillion in debt, ongoing fiscal cliff, and then he hit the stride. is a half hour too long? >> you know, they all -- both of them waited too long to even bring up the idea of energy independence, and that has so much to do with our security, prosperity, and america's opportunity to be the exceptional nation that we know we can be so that's unfortunate. glad that romney weaved in the economic issues that need to be discussed, but both of them missed the point on energy independence again. neil: yeah, yeah, a lot of missed opportunities on both. always a pleasure. thank you very, very much. this senator sat down with us from south carolina. on the sequestering thing,

senator, you know, the president waived that aside like he could dismiss it. he can't, can he? >> one, he signed into law a budget bill that would destroy the military. sequestering is the $600 billion cut on top of $487 -- neil: i know that, but he can't waive it; right? >> he can't. he worked with congress. he's the commander in chief. we'll have the smallest navy since 1915. neil: what do you think of the president's response with horses? >> just unpresidential and snarky. we're note looking for that, but serious. neil: talking more sophisticated weapon system today, not a navy centric. >> if you believe as the secretary of defense informed us that sequestering is law of the land, you'll destroy the finest military in the world, shoot ourselves in the head as nation.

neil: does he have the power to waive it off? >> no, he does not. why is not the commander in chief calling republicans and democrats to pull them in the office, for weeks, to say it was a mistake. he wants the threat of military budget cuts to negotiate for the tax cuts. the reason they don't want to get segments questionserring off the table before the lame duck is he says i know you're a military guy, let these tax rates go up for you millionaire buddies, and i'll work -- neil: what would you say? >> offended by the concept of holding men and women hostage. sick to the symptom math and science that any commander -- sick to my stomach so no, thank you, and mr. president, if you have not noticed, the world is going to hell in a hand basket under your watch. neil: this whole benghazi thing.

once, again -- >> i can't believe somebody -- neil: the moment, and they were not inspect moment. >> did you know the consulate was attacked in april, again in june, did you know there was a wall -- neil: why didn't romney do that? >> i don't know, but at the end of the day, here's what came out of the debate. we're in an economic ditch. the pathway to prosperity does not -- is not going to be achieved by four more years of obama economics. neil: what do you think of the president's demeanor? >> snarky, overly defensive. >> what is "snarky"? >> showing people who is boss. strong people don't need to act strong, but are strong by by themselves. he had to agent strong. neil: was governor romney playing it safe sitting on a lead? >> he made a great case our economic choices are not bearing fruit, and he made a compelling case that like it or not, mr. president, thh world is more

dangerous than it was before. neil: i got a sense of governor romney didn't seem out of the element, but out of the element. whenever he brought it back to the economy, jobs, debt, and how that threatens the national security, he hit the stride. he was not very comfortable -- >> he made a good argument that bin laden is dead, and al-qaeda is reemerging in 10 or 12. he could have done it better. could have pointed exhibit a is libya. who killed the people at the consulate? al-qaeda inspired militia rising for months, but at the end of the day, if we continue down the road of obama economics and obama foreign policy, we'll be in the ditch as a nation on both fronts, and governor romney is a clear alternative, and from there, i was pleased. neil: thank you very much. we'll get the read from john mccain after this, your comments and tweets coming in, and some of conservative and liberal commentators alike commenting on the debate as it

pursued as close to a draw as you could get on the knee-jerk reads, but what do the knee-jerk readings know? they know nothing, but we pass that to you as a quick snapshot of what happened tonight as both sides aggressively spin away in the aggressive debate of 2012. more after this. ♪ 0t[h7

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neil: all right. no signs of examples here -- talk about fox business, most of you thought that the governor got the better of the president tonight, just the mere opposite at cbs. most there thought the benefit was to the president. at cnn, much of the same reaction. huffington post, same reaction. these are all organizations that

feel that the president won. the only difference was by what degree. a fellow who concurs with that, minus the fox business survey, is congressman robert from florida who told me in the break, and we're going to look at some of the tweets as we continue. but, go ahead, guys, look at that. they find this is an aggressive night, tweeting that romney looked presidential, that's one viewer putting it as we roll through some, mitt more laid back tonight, aggressive -- in the eye of the beholder, and one says obama is dominating, and mitt needs to use all ammo and be more aggressivee congressman, in florida, what's it going too? -- going to do? >> help the president immensely. the president dominated the debate being steady, sober, and

strong. he showed the president of the united states, more often than not, gets one shot of being right, and the president was right on al-qaeda, romney was wrong. the president was right on bin laden. governor romney -- neil: how is romney wrong on al-qaeda? it is splintering and launching new attacks; right? >> wrong on the best strategy how to best protect america and decimate the ranks of al-qaeda. the president is the first one to acknowledge that while we decimated the ranks of al-qaeda, there's work to do in other areas, and he's put in place the vehicle or vehicles in which to do that. neil: what about -- did the governor score on the whole refused to go to israel -- in this state where the jewish vote is so crucial, that he might have won a few more of them over? >> just the opposite, actually. the president had an opportunity

to literally lay out his a-plus record on israel. he got to point out for everyone watching that as we talk today, neil, the largest joint military exercise between the united states and israel's conduct. the largest under israel's history under president obama's watch. neil: aren't they semiannual events, anyway? the exercises? >> not in this capacity. neil: do you think the president won jewish voters who were saying, you know, you're not our cup of tea. >> the truth is the best case, and what the president argued today on israel is the truth which is the largest amount of security assistance, more than any other president, more than president bush, more than president clinttn, and both were -- neil: you're a straight shooter. say you are right on this. the president voted to win the last debate, but he didn't make much in polls. that could change. many seem to oncur with you

that the president did well tonight. will he make progress in the polls? >> i think he will. again, it's a tight race. i think in florida, for instance, i think it's a one or two point race. neil: too early to tell; right? >> this could be the difference. neil: congressman, thank you. john mccain next. >> thank you. ♪

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